The Republic
by
Plato
BOOK I
BOOK IBOOK II
BOOK III
BOOK IV
BOOK V
BOOK VI
BOOK VII
BOOK VIII
BOOK IX
BOOK X
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[2]
[3] PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE.
[4]
[5] Socrates, who is the narrator.
[6]
[7] Glaucon.
[8]
[9] Adeimantus.
[10]
[11] Polemarchus.
[12]
[13] Cephalus.
[14]
[15] Thrasymachus.
[16]
[17] Cleitophon.
[18]
[19] And others who are mute auditors.
[20]
[21] The scene is laid in the house of Cephalus at the Piraeus; and the whole
[22] dialogue is narrated by Socrates the day after it actually took place to
[23] Timaeus, Hermocrates, Critias, and a nameless person, who are introduced in
[24] the Timaeus.
[25]
[26]
[27] I went down yesterday to the Piraeus with Glaucon the son of Ariston, that
[28] I might offer up my prayers to the goddess (Bendis, the Thracian Artemis.);
[29] and also because I wanted to see in what manner they would celebrate the
[30] festival, which was a new thing. I was delighted with the procession of
[31] the inhabitants; but that of the Thracians was equally, if not more,
[32] beautiful. When we had finished our prayers and viewed the spectacle, we
[33] turned in the direction of the city; and at that instant Polemarchus the
[34] son of Cephalus chanced to catch sight of us from a distance as we were
[35] starting on our way home, and told his servant to run and bid us wait for
[36] him. The servant took hold of me by the cloak behind, and said:
[37] Polemarchus desires you to wait.
[38]
[39] I turned round, and asked him where his master was.
[40]
[41] There he is, said the youth, coming after you, if you will only wait.
[42]
[43] Certainly we will, said Glaucon; and in a few minutes Polemarchus appeared,
[44] and with him Adeimantus, Glaucon's brother, Niceratus the son of Nicias,
[45] and several others who had been at the procession.
[46]
[47] Polemarchus said to me: I perceive, Socrates, that you and your companion
[48] are already on your way to the city.
[49]
[50] You are not far wrong, I said.
[51]
[52] But do you see, he rejoined, how many we are?
[53]
[54] Of course.
[55]
[56] And are you stronger than all these? for if not, you will have to remain
[57] where you are.
[58]
[59] May there not be the alternative, I said, that we may persuade you to let
[60] us go?
[61]
[62] But can you persuade us, if we refuse to listen to you? he said.
[63]
[64] Certainly not, replied Glaucon.
[65]
[66] Then we are not going to listen; of that you may be assured.
[67]
[68] Adeimantus added: Has no one told you of the torch-race on horseback in
[69] honour of the goddess which will take place in the evening?
[70]
[71] With horses! I replied: That is a novelty. Will horsemen carry torches
[72] and pass them one to another during the race?
[73]
[74] Yes, said Polemarchus, and not only so, but a festival will be celebrated
[75] at night, which you certainly ought to see. Let us rise soon after supper
[76] and see this festival; there will be a gathering of young men, and we will
[77] have a good talk. Stay then, and do not be perverse.
[78]
[79] Glaucon said: I suppose, since you insist, that we must.
[80]
[81] Very good, I replied.
[82]
[83] Accordingly we went with Polemarchus to his house; and there we found his
[84] brothers Lysias and Euthydemus, and with them Thrasymachus the
[85] Chalcedonian, Charmantides the Paeanian, and Cleitophon the son of
[86] Aristonymus. There too was Cephalus the father of Polemarchus, whom I had
[87] not seen for a long time, and I thought him very much aged. He was seated
[88] on a cushioned chair, and had a garland on his head, for he had been
[89] sacrificing in the court; and there were some other chairs in the room
[90] arranged in a semicircle, upon which we sat down by him. He saluted me
[91] eagerly, and then he said:--
[92]
[93] You don't come to see me, Socrates, as often as you ought: If I were still
[94] able to go and see you I would not ask you to come to me. But at my age I
[95] can hardly get to the city, and therefore you should come oftener to the
[96] Piraeus. For let me tell you, that the more the pleasures of the body fade
[97] away, the greater to me is the pleasure and charm of conversation. Do not
[98] then deny my request, but make our house your resort and keep company with
[99] these young men; we are old friends, and you will be quite at home with us.
[100]
[101] I replied: There is nothing which for my part I like better, Cephalus,
[102] than conversing with aged men; for I regard them as travellers who have
[103] gone a journey which I too may have to go, and of whom I ought to enquire,
[104] whether the way is smooth and easy, or rugged and difficult. And this is a
[105] question which I should like to ask of you who have arrived at that time
[106] which the poets call the 'threshold of old age'--Is life harder towards the
[107] end, or what report do you give of it?
[108]
[109] I will tell you, Socrates, he said, what my own feeling is. Men of my age
[110] flock together; we are birds of a feather, as the old proverb says; and at
[111] our meetings the tale of my acquaintance commonly is --I cannot eat, I
[112] cannot drink; the pleasures of youth and love are fled away: there was a
[113] good time once, but now that is gone, and life is no longer life. Some
[114] complain of the slights which are put upon them by relations, and they will
[115] tell you sadly of how many evils their old age is the cause. But to me,
[116] Socrates, these complainers seem to blame that which is not really in
[117] fault. For if old age were the cause, I too being old, and every other old
[118] man, would have felt as they do. But this is not my own experience, nor
[119] that of others whom I have known. How well I remember the aged poet
[120] Sophocles, when in answer to the question, How does love suit with age,
[121] Sophocles,--are you still the man you were? Peace, he replied; most gladly
[122] have I escaped the thing of which you speak; I feel as if I had escaped
[123] from a mad and furious master. His words have often occurred to my mind
[124] since, and they seem as good to me now as at the time when he uttered them.
[125] For certainly old age has a great sense of calm and freedom; when the
[126] passions relax their hold, then, as Sophocles says, we are freed from the
[127] grasp not of one mad master only, but of many. The truth is, Socrates,
[128] that these regrets, and also the complaints about relations, are to be
[129] attributed to the same cause, which is not old age, but men's characters
[130] and tempers; for he who is of a calm and happy nature will hardly feel the
[131] pressure of age, but to him who is of an opposite disposition youth and age
[132] are equally a burden.
[133]
[134] I listened in admiration, and wanting to draw him out, that he might go on
[135] --Yes, Cephalus, I said: but I rather suspect that people in general are
[136] not convinced by you when you speak thus; they think that old age sits
[137] lightly upon you, not because of your happy disposition, but because you
[138] are rich, and wealth is well known to be a great comforter.
[139]
[140] You are right, he replied; they are not convinced: and there is something
[141] in what they say; not, however, so much as they imagine. I might answer
[142] them as Themistocles answered the Seriphian who was abusing him and saying
[143] that he was famous, not for his own merits but because he was an Athenian:
[144] 'If you had been a native of my country or I of yours, neither of us would
[145] have been famous.' And to those who are not rich and are impatient of old
[146] age, the same reply may be made; for to the good poor man old age cannot be
[147] a light burden, nor can a bad rich man ever have peace with himself.
[148]
[149] May I ask, Cephalus, whether your fortune was for the most part inherited
[150] or acquired by you?
[151]
[152] Acquired! Socrates; do you want to know how much I acquired? In the art
[153] of making money I have been midway between my father and grandfather: for
[154] my grandfather, whose name I bear, doubled and trebled the value of his
[155] patrimony, that which he inherited being much what I possess now; but my
[156] father Lysanias reduced the property below what it is at present: and I
[157] shall be satisfied if I leave to these my sons not less but a little more
[158] than I received.
[159]
[160] That was why I asked you the question, I replied, because I see that you
[161] are indifferent about money, which is a characteristic rather of those who
[162] have inherited their fortunes than of those who have acquired them; the
[163] makers of fortunes have a second love of money as a creation of their own,
[164] resembling the affection of authors for their own poems, or of parents for
[165] their children, besides that natural love of it for the sake of use and
[166] profit which is common to them and all men. And hence they are very bad
[167] company, for they can talk about nothing but the praises of wealth.
[168]
[169] That is true, he said.
[170]
[171] Yes, that is very true, but may I ask another question?--What do you
[172] consider to be the greatest blessing which you have reaped from your
[173] wealth?
[174]
[175] One, he said, of which I could not expect easily to convince others. For
[176] let me tell you, Socrates, that when a man thinks himself to be near death,
[177] fears and cares enter into his mind which he never had before; the tales of
[178] a world below and the punishment which is exacted there of deeds done here
[179] were once a laughing matter to him, but now he is tormented with the
[180] thought that they may be true: either from the weakness of age, or because
[181] he is now drawing nearer to that other place, he has a clearer view of
[182] these things; suspicions and alarms crowd thickly upon him, and he begins
[183] to reflect and consider what wrongs he has done to others. And when he
[184] finds that the sum of his transgressions is great he will many a time like
[185] a child start up in his sleep for fear, and he is filled with dark
[186] forebodings. But to him who is conscious of no sin, sweet hope, as Pindar
[187] charmingly says, is the kind nurse of his age:
[188]
[189] 'Hope,' he says, 'cherishes the soul of him who lives in justice and
[190] holiness, and is the nurse of his age and the companion of his journey;--
[191] hope which is mightiest to sway the restless soul of man.'
[192]
[193] How admirable are his words! And the great blessing of riches, I do not
[194] say to every man, but to a good man, is, that he has had no occasion to
[195] deceive or to defraud others, either intentionally or unintentionally; and
[196] when he departs to the world below he is not in any apprehension about
[197] offerings due to the gods or debts which he owes to men. Now to this peace
[198] of mind the possession of wealth greatly contributes; and therefore I say,
[199] that, setting one thing against another, of the many advantages which
[200] wealth has to give, to a man of sense this is in my opinion the greatest.
[201]
[202] Well said, Cephalus, I replied; but as concerning justice, what is it?--to
[203] speak the truth and to pay your debts--no more than this? And even to this
[204] are there not exceptions? Suppose that a friend when in his right mind has
[205] deposited arms with me and he asks for them when he is not in his right
[206] mind, ought I to give them back to him? No one would say that I ought or
[207] that I should be right in doing so, any more than they would say that I
[208] ought always to speak the truth to one who is in his condition.
[209]
[210] You are quite right, he replied.
[211]
[212] But then, I said, speaking the truth and paying your debts is not a correct
[213] definition of justice.
[214]
[215] Quite correct, Socrates, if Simonides is to be believed, said Polemarchus
[216] interposing.
[217]
[218] I fear, said Cephalus, that I must go now, for I have to look after the
[219] sacrifices, and I hand over the argument to Polemarchus and the company.
[220]
[221] Is not Polemarchus your heir? I said.
[222]
[223] To be sure, he answered, and went away laughing to the sacrifices.
[224]
[225] Tell me then, O thou heir of the argument, what did Simonides say, and
[226] according to you truly say, about justice?
[227]
[228] He said that the repayment of a debt is just, and in saying so he appears
[229] to me to be right.
[230]
[231] I should be sorry to doubt the word of such a wise and inspired man, but
[232] his meaning, though probably clear to you, is the reverse of clear to me.
[233] For he certainly does not mean, as we were just now saying, that I ought to
[234] return a deposit of arms or of anything else to one who asks for it when he
[235] is not in his right senses; and yet a deposit cannot be denied to be a
[236] debt.
[237]
[238] True.
[239]
[240] Then when the person who asks me is not in his right mind I am by no means
[241] to make the return?
[242]
[243] Certainly not.
[244]
[245] When Simonides said that the repayment of a debt was justice, he did not
[246] mean to include that case?
[247]
[248] Certainly not; for he thinks that a friend ought always to do good to a
[249] friend and never evil.
[250]
[251] You mean that the return of a deposit of gold which is to the injury of the
[252] receiver, if the two parties are friends, is not the repayment of a debt,--
[253] that is what you would imagine him to say?
[254]
[255] Yes.
[256]
[257] And are enemies also to receive what we owe to them?
[258]
[259] To be sure, he said, they are to receive what we owe them, and an enemy, as
[260] I take it, owes to an enemy that which is due or proper to him--that is to
[261] say, evil.
[262]
[263] Simonides, then, after the manner of poets, would seem to have spoken
[264] darkly of the nature of justice; for he really meant to say that justice is
[265] the giving to each man what is proper to him, and this he termed a debt.
[266]
[267] That must have been his meaning, he said.
[268]
[269] By heaven! I replied; and if we asked him what due or proper thing is given
[270] by medicine, and to whom, what answer do you think that he would make to
[271] us?
[272]
[273] He would surely reply that medicine gives drugs and meat and drink to human
[274] bodies.
[275]
[276] And what due or proper thing is given by cookery, and to what?
[277]
[278] Seasoning to food.
[279]
[280] And what is that which justice gives, and to whom?
[281]
[282] If, Socrates, we are to be guided at all by the analogy of the preceding
[283] instances, then justice is the art which gives good to friends and evil to
[284] enemies.
[285]
[286] That is his meaning then?
[287]
[288] I think so.
[289]
[290] And who is best able to do good to his friends and evil to his enemies in
[291] time of sickness?
[292]
[293] The physician.
[294]
[295] Or when they are on a voyage, amid the perils of the sea?
[296]
[297] The pilot.
[298]
[299] And in what sort of actions or with a view to what result is the just man
[300] most able to do harm to his enemy and good to his friend?
[301]
[302] In going to war against the one and in making alliances with the other.
[303]
[304] But when a man is well, my dear Polemarchus, there is no need of a
[305] physician?
[306]
[307] No.
[308]
[309] And he who is not on a voyage has no need of a pilot?
[310]
[311] No.
[312]
[313] Then in time of peace justice will be of no use?
[314]
[315] I am very far from thinking so.
[316]
[317] You think that justice may be of use in peace as well as in war?
[318]
[319] Yes.
[320]
[321] Like husbandry for the acquisition of corn?
[322]
[323] Yes.
[324]
[325] Or like shoemaking for the acquisition of shoes,--that is what you mean?
[326]
[327] Yes.
[328]
[329] And what similar use or power of acquisition has justice in time of peace?
[330]
[331] In contracts, Socrates, justice is of use.
[332]
[333] And by contracts you mean partnerships?
[334]
[335] Exactly.
[336]
[337] But is the just man or the skilful player a more useful and better partner
[338] at a game of draughts?
[339]
[340] The skilful player.
[341]
[342] And in the laying of bricks and stones is the just man a more useful or
[343] better partner than the builder?
[344]
[345] Quite the reverse.
[346]
[347] Then in what sort of partnership is the just man a better partner than the
[348] harp-player, as in playing the harp the harp-player is certainly a better
[349] partner than the just man?
[350]
[351] In a money partnership.
[352]
[353] Yes, Polemarchus, but surely not in the use of money; for you do not want a
[354] just man to be your counsellor in the purchase or sale of a horse; a man
[355] who is knowing about horses would be better for that, would he not?
[356]
[357] Certainly.
[358]
[359] And when you want to buy a ship, the shipwright or the pilot would be
[360] better?
[361]
[362] True.
[363]
[364] Then what is that joint use of silver or gold in which the just man is to
[365] be preferred?
[366]
[367] When you want a deposit to be kept safely.
[368]
[369] You mean when money is not wanted, but allowed to lie?
[370]
[371] Precisely.
[372]
[373] That is to say, justice is useful when money is useless?
[374]
[375] That is the inference.
[376]
[377] And when you want to keep a pruning-hook safe, then justice is useful to
[378] the individual and to the state; but when you want to use it, then the art
[379] of the vine-dresser?
[380]
[381] Clearly.
[382]
[383] And when you want to keep a shield or a lyre, and not to use them, you
[384] would say that justice is useful; but when you want to use them, then the
[385] art of the soldier or of the musician?
[386]
[387] Certainly.
[388]
[389] And so of all other things;--justice is useful when they are useless, and
[390] useless when they are useful?
[391]
[392] That is the inference.
[393]
[394] Then justice is not good for much. But let us consider this further point:
[395] Is not he who can best strike a blow in a boxing match or in any kind of
[396] fighting best able to ward off a blow?
[397]
[398] Certainly.
[399]
[400] And he who is most skilful in preventing or escaping from a disease is best
[401] able to create one?
[402]
[403] True.
[404]
[405] And he is the best guard of a camp who is best able to steal a march upon
[406] the enemy?
[407]
[408] Certainly.
[409]
[410] Then he who is a good keeper of anything is also a good thief?
[411]
[412] That, I suppose, is to be inferred.
[413]
[414] Then if the just man is good at keeping money, he is good at stealing it.
[415]
[416] That is implied in the argument.
[417]
[418] Then after all the just man has turned out to be a thief. And this is a
[419] lesson which I suspect you must have learnt out of Homer; for he, speaking
[420] of Autolycus, the maternal grandfather of Odysseus, who is a favourite of
[421] his, affirms that
[422]
[423] 'He was excellent above all men in theft and perjury.'
[424]
[425] And so, you and Homer and Simonides are agreed that justice is an art of
[426] theft; to be practised however 'for the good of friends and for the harm of
[427] enemies,'--that was what you were saying?
[428]
[429] No, certainly not that, though I do not now know what I did say; but I
[430] still stand by the latter words.
[431]
[432] Well, there is another question: By friends and enemies do we mean those
[433] who are so really, or only in seeming?
[434]
[435] Surely, he said, a man may be expected to love those whom he thinks good,
[436] and to hate those whom he thinks evil.
[437]
[438] Yes, but do not persons often err about good and evil: many who are not
[439] good seem to be so, and conversely?
[440]
[441] That is true.
[442]
[443] Then to them the good will be enemies and the evil will be their friends?
[444] True.
[445]
[446] And in that case they will be right in doing good to the evil and evil to
[447] the good?
[448]
[449] Clearly.
[450]
[451] But the good are just and would not do an injustice?
[452]
[453] True.
[454]
[455] Then according to your argument it is just to injure those who do no wrong?
[456]
[457] Nay, Socrates; the doctrine is immoral.
[458]
[459] Then I suppose that we ought to do good to the just and harm to the unjust?
[460]
[461] I like that better.
[462]
[463] But see the consequence:--Many a man who is ignorant of human nature has
[464] friends who are bad friends, and in that case he ought to do harm to them;
[465] and he has good enemies whom he ought to benefit; but, if so, we shall be
[466] saying the very opposite of that which we affirmed to be the meaning of
[467] Simonides.
[468]
[469] Very true, he said: and I think that we had better correct an error into
[470] which we seem to have fallen in the use of the words 'friend' and 'enemy.'
[471]
[472] What was the error, Polemarchus? I asked.
[473]
[474] We assumed that he is a friend who seems to be or who is thought good.
[475]
[476] And how is the error to be corrected?
[477]
[478] We should rather say that he is a friend who is, as well as seems, good;
[479] and that he who seems only, and is not good, only seems to be and is not a
[480] friend; and of an enemy the same may be said.
[481]
[482] You would argue that the good are our friends and the bad our enemies?
[483]
[484] Yes.
[485]
[486] And instead of saying simply as we did at first, that it is just to do good
[487] to our friends and harm to our enemies, we should further say: It is just
[488] to do good to our friends when they are good and harm to our enemies when
[489] they are evil?
[490]
[491] Yes, that appears to me to be the truth.
[492]
[493] But ought the just to injure any one at all?
[494]
[495] Undoubtedly he ought to injure those who are both wicked and his enemies.
[496]
[497] When horses are injured, are they improved or deteriorated?
[498]
[499] The latter.
[500]
[501] Deteriorated, that is to say, in the good qualities of horses, not of dogs?
[502]
[503] Yes, of horses.
[504]
[505] And dogs are deteriorated in the good qualities of dogs, and not of horses?
[506]
[507] Of course.
[508]
[509] And will not men who are injured be deteriorated in that which is the
[510] proper virtue of man?
[511]
[512] Certainly.
[513]
[514] And that human virtue is justice?
[515]
[516] To be sure.
[517]
[518] Then men who are injured are of necessity made unjust?
[519]
[520] That is the result.
[521]
[522] But can the musician by his art make men unmusical?
[523]
[524] Certainly not.
[525]
[526] Or the horseman by his art make them bad horsemen?
[527]
[528] Impossible.
[529]
[530] And can the just by justice make men unjust, or speaking generally, can the
[531] good by virtue make them bad?
[532]
[533] Assuredly not.
[534]
[535] Any more than heat can produce cold?
[536]
[537] It cannot.
[538]
[539] Or drought moisture?
[540]
[541] Clearly not.
[542]
[543] Nor can the good harm any one?
[544]
[545] Impossible.
[546]
[547] And the just is the good?
[548]
[549] Certainly.
[550]
[551] Then to injure a friend or any one else is not the act of a just man, but
[552] of the opposite, who is the unjust?
[553]
[554] I think that what you say is quite true, Socrates.
[555]
[556] Then if a man says that justice consists in the repayment of debts, and
[557] that good is the debt which a just man owes to his friends, and evil the
[558] debt which he owes to his enemies,--to say this is not wise; for it is not
[559] true, if, as has been clearly shown, the injuring of another can be in no
[560] case just.
[561]
[562] I agree with you, said Polemarchus.
[563]
[564] Then you and I are prepared to take up arms against any one who attributes
[565] such a saying to Simonides or Bias or Pittacus, or any other wise man or
[566] seer?
[567]
[568] I am quite ready to do battle at your side, he said.
[569]
[570] Shall I tell you whose I believe the saying to be?
[571]
[572] Whose?
[573]
[574] I believe that Periander or Perdiccas or Xerxes or Ismenias the Theban, or
[575] some other rich and mighty man, who had a great opinion of his own power,
[576] was the first to say that justice is 'doing good to your friends and harm
[577] to your enemies.'
[578]
[579] Most true, he said.
[580]
[581] Yes, I said; but if this definition of justice also breaks down, what other
[582] can be offered?
[583]
[584] Several times in the course of the discussion Thrasymachus had made an
[585] attempt to get the argument into his own hands, and had been put down by
[586] the rest of the company, who wanted to hear the end. But when Polemarchus
[587] and I had done speaking and there was a pause, he could no longer hold his
[588] peace; and, gathering himself up, he came at us like a wild beast, seeking
[589] to devour us. We were quite panic-stricken at the sight of him.
[590]
[591] He roared out to the whole company: What folly, Socrates, has taken
[592] possession of you all? And why, sillybillies, do you knock under to one
[593] another? I say that if you want really to know what justice is, you should
[594] not only ask but answer, and you should not seek honour to yourself from
[595] the refutation of an opponent, but have your own answer; for there is many
[596] a one who can ask and cannot answer. And now I will not have you say that
[597] justice is duty or advantage or profit or gain or interest, for this sort
[598] of nonsense will not do for me; I must have clearness and accuracy.
[599]
[600] I was panic-stricken at his words, and could not look at him without
[601] trembling. Indeed I believe that if I had not fixed my eye upon him, I
[602] should have been struck dumb: but when I saw his fury rising, I looked at
[603] him first, and was therefore able to reply to him.
[604]
[605] Thrasymachus, I said, with a quiver, don't be hard upon us. Polemarchus
[606] and I may have been guilty of a little mistake in the argument, but I can
[607] assure you that the error was not intentional. If we were seeking for a
[608] piece of gold, you would not imagine that we were 'knocking under to one
[609] another,' and so losing our chance of finding it. And why, when we are
[610] seeking for justice, a thing more precious than many pieces of gold, do you
[611] say that we are weakly yielding to one another and not doing our utmost to
[612] get at the truth? Nay, my good friend, we are most willing and anxious to
[613] do so, but the fact is that we cannot. And if so, you people who know all
[614] things should pity us and not be angry with us.
[615]
[616] How characteristic of Socrates! he replied, with a bitter laugh;--that's
[617] your ironical style! Did I not foresee--have I not already told you, that
[618] whatever he was asked he would refuse to answer, and try irony or any other
[619] shuffle, in order that he might avoid answering?
[620]
[621] You are a philosopher, Thrasymachus, I replied, and well know that if you
[622] ask a person what numbers make up twelve, taking care to prohibit him whom
[623] you ask from answering twice six, or three times four, or six times two, or
[624] four times three, 'for this sort of nonsense will not do for me,'--then
[625] obviously, if that is your way of putting the question, no one can answer
[626] you. But suppose that he were to retort, 'Thrasymachus, what do you mean?
[627] If one of these numbers which you interdict be the true answer to the
[628] question, am I falsely to say some other number which is not the right
[629] one?--is that your meaning?'--How would you answer him?
[630]
[631] Just as if the two cases were at all alike! he said.
[632]
[633] Why should they not be? I replied; and even if they are not, but only
[634] appear to be